I was lucky enough to sit down with Chris Skotchdopole and talk about his film Crumb Catcher (you can read my review here). It’s always amazing to hear a creator talk about how they got to where they ended up with a project and I’m really happy I got to do this. Edited for content/clarity/length
Justin: So, the first thing I wanted to ask you was, is how did you arrive at this film?
Chris: the beginning of it was just that I wanted to make a movie, something that I knew that I could do. Larry (Fesseden, producer for Glass Eye Pix) and I had been talking about another film that was called Small Deaths that was bigger, and it was good, but it just felt like I didn’t know how to make it myself in this way. And then I started conceiving of something that would be a single location, a parameter that I put it in. And yet it’s not really single location; they get married and there’s things at the end. But for the most part, I just sort of like focused in on what the single location movies and just sort of start to think about that. The previous movie sort of started with this married couple, and I kind of just kept that relationship or that thing. I think the emotional spark was starting with this guy that didn’t want to be at his own party, didn’t want to be at his own like wedding. Not that he didn’t love her, but it was like he didn’t like the idea of being presented. I think a lot of times like creativity, when you put it into a box and say, this is what you can and can’t do, you can suddenly see that there’s endless possibilities within that space. And basically, then we moved on, then it kind of became about this guy that was going to come to their house. And then I didn’t quite know what that was going to be. And in earlier versions, it was kind of a guy from his past that was coming back from something that he did ages ago. And John (Speredakos)’s voice kind of emerged as a sort of opposite of Shane, as a very, very extroverted like kind of person. And then you sort of keep that. I remember I was at a bar with Larry, and I was just like, I felt like it was so contrived that it was like on his wedding night, something coming from his past. And I had just thought that what if it just happened in a blackout and it was all within that night that had happened, basically the inciting incident of the movie is missing, you know? And then the idea of waiters and what would waiters want. My partner works in restaurants and I just am very aware of those types of personalities. And it was like the voice of John. So, we made him a waiter. And then I just was thinking about what this waiter’s dreams would be, what he would want. And this became about this product. And I remember the first time I had gotten that idea, I wrote the entire crime catcher scene pretty like front to back in one sitting and not much really changed. Like a lot of blocking changed and maybe some intentions, but it was kind of what that, what the scene became. And I love this idea of this like pitch that’s being told to these people. And it sort of brought me to a lot of the movies that I was loving at the time, which was, you know, it was like this early Scorsese era. And I like one of my favorite, I mean, I think it’s a favorite of a lot of people, but the werewolves of London scene in Color of Money. And I just kind of was like, oh, this could be like that a little bit. And so even as I was writing, I was kind of already realizing that it was going to be this circle pattern within the style of it. Then for me it becomes like really becoming responsible to the emotional landscape of the characters in terms of where we find a conclusion for these sort of desperate people, you know?
Justin: one of the things I also want to talk about, and you kind of hinted at it when you said, “why not make the guy like a waiter?” There’s this undercurrent of class consciousness. Like there’s these well-off people, who are kind of unhappy despite they have everything, and then suddenly here comes this guy with this manic optimism who truly believes he’s going to make it, and these people are just like ‘get out our house.’
Chris: Yeah. I mean, I, the guy who designed the Crumb Catcher, a friend of mine and a great artist, James Seward, he designed it in Blender and did the brochure with me. And it was kind of us riffing for a few years as you try to make the movie. Anytime he would get a day off, we would go over something, and I would do something for him. And then he would trade me to work on this a little bit more. I remember there was this conversation we had about, about Jack White and how there was this interview with him where he was talking about how the first three albums of the White Stripes were basically unknown. And those are like incredible albums. And basically, he just kept believing in the band and he was sort of like, OK, to just be a furniture repair man and, and just make music and just have like, you know, he can play shows and do things like that, but that’s just his side gig and he’s just going to live his life. And so, he really got a chance to establish what the White Stripes were for him. And he stayed true and kept writing and kept writing and kept working. And then his day arrived, and he blew up. It wasn’t until his third album that he kind of blew up. And then I remember James had said something like, you know, they should do interviews with people who failed, like they tried, and they tried, and they tried, and nothing worked. Like, what if you do it all right? What if you put your house on the line, your relationships on the line and then it doesn’t work? I think that that’s a reality for most people who fight for their American dream, their vision of their life.
Justin: I don’t know if you’ve ever seen The Decline of Western Civilization 2, The Metal Years. There are all these hair metal guys in their early 20s who are all utterly convinced they’re about to make it. Where are those guys now? I want to see what they did after their day didn’t come. There’s a fascinating concept there about someone who was utterly convinced of their own imminent success.
Chris: And what if it’s not? What if they’re entirely delusional? There are all these confusing sort people on Instagram talking about success and talking about like, you know, success is not chasing success. Success is being success and success finds you, this very convoluted logic. There’s this thing where you kind of must fake it till you make it, you know? I think John is the person who didn’t get it. And I think in a lot of ways, Shane is someone who is at the cusp of potentially having it, I kind of look at Leah and Shane as they have the potential to have everything. They’re on their cusp. Even lone of the things in the process of making the movie as I was trying to find a location, I found this house upstate, this beautiful, like kind of Japanese inspired, you know, cottage loft situation. And it was not what I was expecting, but I really loved it. And I remember I was there at night and it was very scary because you can see in, you know, and I just had like a feeling in my stomach that it was right. And then I started thinking about, “what if this was the publisher’s house?” and how that would make them feel like, because before it was just supposed to be that it was a house that it was a beautiful house that needs a lot of work and they were going to fix it up, and it was like somehow connected to their family in some way, very like standard fare. But this whole idea of the publisher’s house and the idea of them presenting art, I thought that was interesting. And I also thought it tied in with Shane coming from kind of humble beginnings. It felt like this was something that he couldn’t live up to this. I just felt like if I was him walking into this life, I would just feel like kind of insecure, because it’s almost like he fears that he’s going to fail. So, he’s projecting this kind of negativity out onto his relationship. I think he walks into that house and he’s just like, I could never afford this. And then you have John coming in and then he’s like thinking that it’s their house, thinking that Shane is famous because someone wrote an article about him. There’s also the idea of Shane and how he put his entire childhood into this book and it’s worth $5,000. I just watched this documentary two nights ago about, about J.D. Salinger, and how when Catcher in the Rye came out, it was like this phenomenon. And then he just like became a recluse. And there was this idea that he was like writing and these masterpieces that no one can see and blah, blah, blah. But like with Catcher in the Rye, he was literally in World War II. I mean, he was at D-Day and chapters of Catcher in the Rye were his uniform. And, and basically then he just shut himself out to the world. And for me as I was watching it, I wasn’t thinking that he has some masterpieces that he’s not showing the world, but I feel like it’s like he lived through this thing and was able to produce something of magnitude that just like resonated with an entire culture and generations on generations. But think of what he had to go through to get that. And I’m rambling here a little bit, but I think that there’s some of that going on with Shane with that too. It was his whole childhood that he put into this book and now it’s worth $5,000.
Justin: Yeah, they put a price tag on it, they’ve quantified it.
Chris: And then they’re like, oh, well your next book. And he’s like, my next book? You know what I’m saying? So, I do think that something to that. Anyway, maybe we’re off course, but that’s the format, right?
Justin: I love stuff like this. It’s like letting people talk and just seeing the, I was going to say the skeleton beneath the skin, but let’s say the man behind the curtain. But I think like the standout performance in this movie that made it, that for me pushed it into the realm of horror and was of John Sparadakus. How did you get that out of him? What were the directions you gave him to create this like, quietly terrifying character?
Chris: For me, it’s, it’s in the writing and it’s also John is an incredible actor. The thing he speaks about a lot and, and what I just agree with is like, is that he doesn’t judge the character, like he’s not thinking about their actions. He’s just trying to ground what they’re doing. And I think to make a character that is really menacing in a real way is to make them vulnerable and human and to understand how they got there. And I think that’s a lot of the stuff that we spoke about the interview of a failed man, the idea that he did try everything, and he wound up here and how that feels. I imagine Rose probably believed in him at one point and then now she doesn’t, and she would like to escape. I think then he looks at Shane as someone who is below him now in the spotlight and he’s thinking of it as trendy. I didn’t set out to write these things to like talk about the culture, but if you’re making something in present day and you want these characters to be real, you start making choices as to how the world is going to come into the story, you know? And then some kind of conversation emerges that is kind of a just not the main dish of the movie. And then it sort of becomes this like survival story of these people.
Justin: So, one of the things I appreciate about this is because I love a good MacGuffin. Anytime there’s something that’s in a movie where it’s essential to the plot, but they don’t really talk about it. How did you come up with the most mundane invention, this thing you sweep your crumbs into? John’s conviction that this like super mundane thing was going to change the world was one of the things that pushed this into almost like this surreal, like something you’d see on Twin Peaks territory.
Chris: Yeah. I mean, for me I think that when you’re isolated with characters, like you can just connect dots that make sense to their perspective. But then when you step back, you’re like, “well that’s kind of nuts.” What I loved about the invention of the Crumb Catcher for him is that it all came out of his insecurities. He’s a person who talks too much, you know? So as a waiter, he feels like maybe he is overstaying his welcome when he’s like taking their orders. I like the idea that he’s slightly aware of this thing, and then it’s manifested into this product that saying, “You can sweep up your own crumbs.” So, it psychologically makes sense for his character. It’s like that perfect glove of of who he is. But I had read your review of the movie and I have to say, I have to thank you for it because it was just so thoughtful and also you had talked a bit about this MacGuffin thing in it and it reminded me of this story before I read the review, I hadn’t thought of this, but there was this story that I had read a while ago that I love by Raymond Carver called “Feathers”.
Justin: No, I’m not familiar.
Chris: I don’t really remember it exactly perfectly, but the idea is that there’s these two couples, they meet for dinner and, and the one couple that, that lived there have this like peacock that’s just around the house. It’s like a pet peacock, and they don’t really pay much attention to it, but it’s just like in the story all the time. I remember this one image; they were smoking cigarettes and the guy flicks the cigarette in the ashtray and the ashtray is this sculpture of a peacock. And for whatever it was, when I read your review, I was wondering if this story had somehow come into my subconscious when I was working on Crumb Catcher in some way, because it felt oddly similar. Like a glorification of this thing that doesn’t really serve a role but is also like essential to the narrative. But also in the Carver story, it’s very normal. But I think the people who were coming to dinner were a little bit more uptight. And then these people who were in the country that they were going to visit were sort of hippie-ish in a way.
Justin: another thing that I felt that your film really accomplished a a lot of movies don’t, is I talked about the element of “cringe” and how there’s this thing of people setting out to film themselves in uncomfortable situations. I mentioned in the review how it reminded me of the hitchhiker scene in The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and how uncomfortable it is to be with someone unpredictable in a closed space, and your mentioning of how it was intended to be a single location film reminded me of that. Did the idea of this being an uncomfortable pressure cooker of film evolve as the film was being made?
Chris: Yeah, that just naturally happens. For me, when I’m working on something, I have some l impulse that makes me interested to know more, and then those questions lead to more questions, which lead to more questions. And then you’re just sort of following this thing. And I feel like you’re just trying to find connections within yourself on these particular people and trying to find something that’s cohesive and that is constantly having reversals and turning and keeping someone engaged. I’m always surprised at where, what, and how things happen, and I hope the audience is too. Mostly it’s just me finding what would happen if this situation was presented in a real as possible way. And then I think something comes out. I mean, I, it’s interesting that the first time I ever thought about cringe and film as a thing was when I was at Fantastic Fest and I read the first review that came in where they were saying like, cringe comedy., I’m not a person who reads a lot about movies. I watch a lot of movies, but I just sort of have my own experiences with them. And I am not like caring too much about what other people think about them, which is an interesting experience having to put out a movie and then having to care what people think. I mean, I’m obviously care about what people say about it because it then, allows other people to see it or not to see it or be interested or not be interested. Um, so I care about it in a, in a sort of like binary way. I never really thought of it as, as a, I didn’t even know it was a genre. I mean, it’s, it’s funny that people are just like, ‘oh it’s like I Think You Should Leave’ and I didn’t even k now what that was! I mean I was aware of the show from a clip I saw on Instagram, but that’s all I really knew about “cringe”. I think we’re all sort of connected to each through our mutual experiences in the world, and likeminded people are drawn to the same thing. For me, two of the things that inspired me with this film were Ed Wood and The King Of Comedy. If I was trying to do anything with this it was that I really loved those films. Like how in The King Of Comedy he’s so convinced he’s going to make it.
Justin: I also think your film highlights the idea of the social contract, and how when that gets ignored, we don’t know how to deal with it.
Chris: yeah, because there’s this whole concept of politeness that you’re trying to adhere to. I was standing in line at the airport recently, and it was a mess, and I’m in line with my family, and behind me is this guy whose one of those close standers? And he’s trying to look around the corner, and he’s standing super close to me and mumbling to himself, and I’m trying to make some sort of indication that he’s in my space without being confrontational, and I don’t think he’s meaning to be annoying at all. There is this social construct where you don’t want to be a dick, but this guy was quite often in my ear.
Justin: it speaks to the frightening reality that if someone comes to your house and insists on not leaving, you don’t have many options beyond calling the police.
Chris: and what are you going to say to the police? He didn’t do anything. You allowed him into your house, he’s not threatening you. And I tried to make it as realistic as possible as to why they couldn’t make him leave. I tried to make his behavior aggressive as possible without being threatening. Like him sitting on the couch without being asked is extremely aggressive. I really enjoyed grounding these little examples of him getting too much in their business.
Justin: there’s a lot of analysis about characters being ‘on the spectrum’, but John’s character doesn’t come off as someone neurodivergent but more as just a guy who was saying ‘I’m in your life now’.
Chris: it was the rehearsals that we found a lot of those little touches. I do this technique where we rehearse, and originally in the script there was nothing about a waterglass. But during rehearsal, he put the waterglass down, and Leah was like, ‘Chris, it’s driving me crazy can I put his glass on the coaster?’ And then it dawned on me that at the end of the scene he should put the glass where it was originally, not on the coaster. And that’s also because we were able to get into the characters heads and follow them. And if you’re really taking notes on things you can pick up on certain actions speaking volumes for certain characters, and that’s sort of thematic of everything else running through the story. And that’s an element that was dependent on the location, because we’d chose this nice house instead of a fixer upper, and that also speaks about how everything in a film is connected. Everything is connected when you’re working this way.
Justin: when I was younger, I read about the creative process of Stephen King, and how he would let the characters do their own thing and I never understood that because to me it was like, “you’re the writer…make them do the thing you want them to do.” But I understand now how it would make sense for a character to do something vs. them doing something that wouldn’t make sense.
Chris: I just get so annoyed when I’m watching a movie or a TV show and they’re constantly looking for these reversals and you can really feel the outline that they wrote, because it feels like they’re only doing something because it fits the story.
(We talk about this phenomenon on the X-Files for a bit)
Chris: I feel like every time I go to work on something, every day I go back to the first scene to hypnotize myself and track where I’m going. And sometimes if you don’t like where the story is going, you must go back to the beginning, and change something about a character, and then see where that goes, because then it doesn’t feel like its author doing it. One of the things I don’t like is when it feels like the author has opinion on something and feels like they need to tell us. I love when they arrive there, but if it feels too academic, I feel like ‘just write an essay’. I need to feel consumed by characters, and to know them. When you’re going with them in their world, I don’t want it to feel academic. And I think our culture is plagued by this right now, with audiences want movies to be part of a bigger thing and to speak to this social issue, or that social issue, and just feels contrived. It doesn’t feel organic. It doesn’t feel like I’m learning from people it feels like I’m learning from an author. And I think the authors job is to live through these people and discover something with the audience. I just saw this movie The Killing Of A Chinese Bookie, a John Cassavetes movie, about a strip club owner whose all about the entertainment of this club. He goes out on the town and ends up owing a ton of money in gambling debt and to clear the debt he’s ordered to kill a Chinese bookie, and as he’s running around doing all these things to kill the bookie, he’s calling his assistant and asking what number the dancers are going, and I’m not sure what that’s saying about anything, but I think that’s so insightful to the character and who they are. I think it adds to the realism of it because you might know someone who would act like that.
Justin: alright I think we’re going to wrap it up. Thank you so much for coming on here to talk with me. This was a great conversation and it’s exactly what I hoped to do.
Chris: thank you for chatting with me!
